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RDF and bio filter installation

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:12 pm

alank wrote:Very pleased with the performance. The main thing is that I can leave the pond without worry over maintenance and daily cleaning of filters as it is all automatic.

There are two big males which seem agitated and flicking a lot. A couple of the smaller ones are twitching. There are no signs of parasites and we are on the final treatment for white spot so not sure what is going on. It may be the water temp has risen and the big boys are getting a bit frisky.

Flicking should always be taken seriously Alan !

Sexually Mature Males and Females succumb more readily to ICH so I would not rule that out just yet ?

`Frisky` could be another candidate at higher temps Rolling Eyes knowing Carp Laughing

What Temps are they at now ?

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Zac Penn on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:08 pm


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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:59 pm

Point noted Zac, I will let you know what happens when I change it.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:00 pm

The RDF has now been refitted after dropping the bio tank 80mm into the ground. It was quite a job as I had laid the filter house floor with 200 mm of concrete!!

I also removed the pumps from the bio tank by adding a take off section made from stainless steel which prevents K1 getting snagged on any obstructions. I have also altered the feed transition as Zac suggested. (Incidentally, when I took it apart, there was a latex glove blocking the grille. It must have fallen into the RDF whilst the lid was off).

With a flow rate of 33000 l/h, the bio tank works well with 400 ltrs of K1 and discs and about 80 ltrs of air. I have a 120 air pump that agitates the K1 and feeds the bottom drain.

To be honest, I was a little disappointed with water clarity. After 3 days, the water had lots of fines floating about and a large area of poo settlement at one side of the pond floor. I had turned off a second filter system which returned 15000 l/h into the bottom of the pond and caused a slow vortex. With this pump off, the 33000l/h being returned through a shower reduced the vortex hence the settlement.

Two days ago, I restarted the 15000 l/h pump to restart the vortex. I then started closing down the mid drain and the skimmer to get more water flowing through the bottom drain. This had the effect of dropping the water level in the bio tank and causing the K1 to stop circulating. However, the water is clearing rapidly now however, I am still not happy with it. I am in the process of tweaking the three drains to get the best flow rates through the bottom drain. I am also removing K1 to get the circulation rates I need in the bio tank. I doubt I will get the sparkly water I had with the sand filter which is a little disappointing.

The next mod is to reinstall the 18000 l/h sequence pump which also draws from the bio tank. Once this is up and running, I will tweak all of the drain valves again as I think they will all be fully open to get the required flow into the RDF.

At this moment in time, I am fairly confident that the KC30 RDF will cope with 50000 l/h as it only cleans at 20 minute intervals at the moment. Ultimately, I think 400 liters of K1 in a 1000 liter bio tank without any internal constrictions would be the way forward but I just don't have the space.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:45 am

Not had a chance to install the Sequence pump as yet, the poo that is still floating around will not go away. I have tried all sorts of combinations on the various valves feeding the RDF. The mid drain takes nothing away and when open, the crap builds up in the pond as the bottom drain is moving less. Its odd. I have at least twice the flow I had through the Nexus but the water clarity is no better.

Its not that the filter doesn't take the stuff out, its more that the stuff doesn't get into the filter. These are not just fines, some of the bits are quite big but just go round and round mid water.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:26 am

alank wrote:Not had a chance to install the Sequence pump as yet, the poo that is still floating around will not go away. I have tried all sorts of combinations on the various valves feeding the RDF. The mid drain takes nothing away and when open, the crap builds up in the pond as the bottom drain is moving less. Its odd. I have at least twice the flow I had through the Nexus but the water clarity is no better.

Its not that the filter doesn't take the stuff out, its more that the stuff doesn't get into the filter. These are not just fines, some of the bits are quite big but just go round and round mid water.

Do you have one or two BD`s Alan ?

Is this the Detritus which was previously settling in one spot when you turned off the vortex effect return which assisted in sweeping the debris toward the BD ?

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:18 am

Just one BD.

The water is a lot clearer now that the vortex is re-established as there are no settlement areas. All that had settled is gone as they were quite big pieces of poo and uneaten sturgeon food. We have one sturgeon.

My problem is that it is not going to get any better than this. I was hoping to just have the 33000 l/h pump and the RDF as the cost saving is worth having. With the vortex pump on, the electricity used is back into double figures, ie 13 pence per hour for the pond only. It was down to 8 pence or so. (It used to be 27 pph with the sand filter etc etc).

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Zac Penn on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:24 am

I don't know how I missed this before, but are you seriously trying to flow 51,000 lph through the KC-30? The KC-30 stands for 30,000 lph of water flow. The KC-60 stands for 60,000 lph of water flow! You are trying to flow WAY too much water through the filter.

That has nothing to do with the water quality, but it does put unnecessary stress on the filter drum. Can you provide me with a rough drawing that shows where all of you returns and suction lines are positioned on the pond? This will help me figure out what is going on.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:31 am

Hi Zac, I am putting 33000 l/h through. I know its a 30000 l/h drum but as it cleans about every 20 minutes or so, I think it can take more. It may be that it cant but there is no harm in trying. My thoughts are to add an 18000 l/h pump so I can use that in winter and turn the 30000 l/h pump off. Also, I can use the 18000 to create a vortex. It is not my intention to have this on 24/7 with the 33000. If I can run both pumps, the 18000 will be on between 24:00 and 5:00.

I will post a pic of drains shortly.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:19 am



For scale, the window is 2 m x 1 m and the pond is 2.3 m deep. You are probably going to say the shape is the problem but I has had CRYSTAL clear water with the Nexus and a glass filter after it pumping only 14000 l/h

crystal clear water

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:29 am

The glass filter returned 14000 l/h through the two piped above and below the "m" in "New skimmer" on the top photo. Nothing is returning there now but I intend to send 18000 l/h through these returns but not 24/7. Also, there was no shower with the nexus/glass filter 14000 l/h combination.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:24 pm

Are you feeding the Sturgeon at night Alan ?

If he comes up to feed with the Koi during the day .. you could try reducing his pellets at night IF this is the scenario...

Food left overnight will cloud up the water Sweetie.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:49 am

He does not touch any floating food, I throw in half a handful each evening and watch him scoop it all up. The Koi take a few but not many.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:04 pm

Another problem reared its head this morning. I have swapped pumps over now by switching off the 33000 l/h and starting the newly installed sequence 18000 l/h, I expected the water level in the bio tank to be much higher with 15000 l/h less going through the RDF. The level however was only 25 mm less. This tells me there is something wrong with the screen. I am guessing the screen (40 micron) has a build up of bio film which is blocking the "pores" of the mesh.

I back washed the screen with a hosepipe in the opposite direction to the spray bar and the situation improved slightly.
Is there a product that I can use to clean the bio film off the screen. I have read somewhere that lemon juice will do this.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:42 pm

Zac uses Muriatic Acid Alan or `Hydrochloric Acid in english Laughing

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?121221-Rotary-Drum-Filters...are-they-the-future-of-ponding/page2&s=3d10ec7f890696ef94a2d7f9d38498f6

Not sure what strength his Muriatic Acid is though? but I buy all my `Pure` Chemicals here Sweetie Arrow

http://mistralni.co.uk/catalogue/cat/7/Acids

Zac Help ?


Last edited by Admin on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:17 pm

Hmm just read that, thanks Mio. Nobody told me I would need to do this every 6 months so the RDF is not isolated from the bio tank. I would have to remove all the K1 and do the whole setup.

The acid cleaning is done to get rid of calcium deposits but I think my problem is bio film, I could be wrong. We have very soft water so Limescale is not a problem. Also the unit has not been running anything like 6 months.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:40 pm

alank wrote:Hmm just read that, thanks Mio. Nobody told me I would need to do this every 6 months so the RDF is not isolated from the bio tank. I would have to remove all the K1 and do the whole setup.

The acid cleaning is done to get rid of calcium deposits but I think my problem is bio film, I could be wrong. We have very soft water so Limescale is not a problem. Also the unit has not been running anything like 6 months.

Can you pressure wash it off Alan? or would that damage the screen ?

Bio-Films won`t simply hose off so will require dissolving ...

Lemon Juice has a 2 ph which is close to HA ph of 1-2 so you could try that I suppose Sweetie.


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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 pm

I have figured out how I can acid wash it without doing the bio tank. In the meantime I have PP'd the filter and added hydrogen peroxide after 1/2 hour. That made some difference. In addition, I have just reset the back wash timer to clean for 8 seconds rather than 4 which has improved the flow so I will give it some time.

There is a very strong vortex in the pond now and the big fines are not so obvious. There are still small fines so again, I will give it a day or so to see what happens.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:24 pm

Earlier, I tried to run the RDF with the 33000 l/h pump and the 18000 l/h pump just to see what happens. As Zac says, KC30 does not cope. The bio tank drains in about 10 minutes so that idea is put to bed.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:58 pm

alank wrote:Earlier, I tried to run the RDF with the 33000 l/h pump and the 18000 l/h pump just to see what happens. As Zac says, KC30 does not cope. The bio tank drains in about 10 minutes so that idea is put to bed.

I agree with Zac too Alan Smile wiser to run such an expensive piece of Kit at manufacturers recommendations.

Off Topic ... and to illustrate .....

My Uv will cope with 2,000 gph and I was pumping 11,000 lph through it allowing for friction losses etc. Rolling Eyes needless to say it clarifies much more efficiently at 1 third of the that flow now ...

When Algae is only half killed it will recover and continue to multiply exponentially Twisted Evil

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Zac Penn on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:11 am

Have you tried to contact your dealer? I am pretty sure you purchased it from Mike seeing as how you are in Europe, so he should be able to help you out. When cleaning the screen for build-up you need to use a VERY weak dose of acid. You just want to kill whatever is on the screen, and flush it off. What kind of booster pump is being used for the spray bars? I also don't know the difference between the European vs American drive motors so complete rotation times may be different, but I use 9 seconds as a cleaning time. This allows for one complete rotation (7.8 second roughly) and exposes a new section of screen underwater each time. This way the screen doesn't get stretched out in the same location over time. If the booster pump isn't strong enough, then it will not remove enough build-up on the screen, so you will see a greater draw down between the clean and dirty sides of the filter.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:31 am

The pump is a British made equivalent but with stainless steel shaft etc. I contacted the importer earlier today and he suggested the same as you so I increased cleaning time from 4 seconds to 8 seconds. Prior to this, I cleaned the drum with a strong dose of PP followed by HP. The difference is amazing and handles 33000 l/h easily.

As a matter of interest, I tried 51000 l/h and it handles that as well without draining the bio tank. I will not run it at 51000 but its nice to know it will cope with it at 8 seconds cleaning cycle. At 51000 l/h, and a fairly dirty pond, the drum was cleaning at 5 minute intervals.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:36 pm

alank wrote:The pump is a British made equivalent but with stainless steel shaft etc. I contacted the importer earlier today and he suggested the same as you so I increased cleaning time from 4 seconds to 8 seconds. Prior to this, I cleaned the drum with a strong dose of PP followed by HP. The difference is amazing and handles 33000 l/h easily.

As a matter of interest, I tried 51000 l/h and it handles that as well without draining the bio tank. I will not run it at 51000 but its nice to know it will cope with it at 8 seconds cleaning cycle. At 51000 l/h, and a fairly dirty pond, the drum was cleaning at 5 minute intervals.

The PP and HP combo should be able to remove a thin bio-film given the system has not been in operation for very long.

I imagine they take a bit of tweaking Alan .. glad your happy with the results. Very Happy

Do please keep us posted.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by alank on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:10 pm

Just for the hell of it, I ran the system overnight at 51000 l/h. I would guess 50% of the fines have now gone and the cloudiness is definitely less obvious. The top layer of water is clear if that makes sense. The small koi which live at the bottom of the pond can now be seen clearly. All the drains are fully open. I am going to run it like this for a while to see what happens but a definite improvement can be seen after only 12 hours.

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Re: RDF and bio filter installation

Post by Admin on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:20 pm

alank wrote:Just for the hell of it, I ran the system overnight at 51000 l/h. I would guess 50% of the fines have now gone and the cloudiness is definitely less obvious. The top layer of water is clear if that makes sense. The small koi which live at the bottom of the pond can now be seen clearly. All the drains are fully open. I am going to run it like this for a while to see what happens but a definite improvement can be seen after only 12 hours.

Yes it does make sense Sweetie... Smile

Alga`s reside in the surface water layers during daylight/sunlight hours due their photosynthesis requirement ... therefore capturing and removing these before they have time to multiply will result in clearer water.

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