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4 Figure TDS!

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4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:31 am

How do you like your TDS Guys ?

Mine is 4 phigures currently with a PH of 9 Twisted Evil




http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

6,550 ppm to be precise Shocked

The wretched Salt is concentrating via evaporation at 20C plus more quickly than I can replace the water and has increased back up to .6% after reducing it to .4% initially Rolling Eyes

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:36 pm

Mio
I am currentlty running my system with TDS of 80ppm, p.H 7.3 to 7.4, ORP 350. AS you know I have run my system with a TDS as low as 35ppm, when running revearse osmosis system. I turned this off last winter ( trickling in cold water24/7 )to presearve heat.
I have not turned it back on as I am not sure that there are enough benifits compared to cost to reduce this further, as I beleive 80ppm is pretty good anyway being only 10ppm above what is coming from the tap.Also I plan not to heat again next winter and fear putting any extra load on the kois osmoregulatory system. Hope this makes sense
Best Regards Dave
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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:15 pm

The KH is a mere 36ppm Dave.

The slightest trace of Alkalinity will produce a neutral PH as you know in the absence of injected CO2.

Green Water is responsible for the 9 PH and it would be higher still were there not point six percent salinity >




So much for advising Members to use salt for Algae issues ... I`ve proved it doesn`t touch it time and time again.

Norm meck is of a similar opinion >

http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/green_water.php

This is a Hospital tank set up to treat a Dropsied Babe whilst offsetting cycling Amm/Nit/Nat problems hence the salt inclusion.

Was it very expensive running R/O Dave ?


Last edited by Admin on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:35 am; edited 4 times in total

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:01 pm

I would Love to run R/O Dave... but don`t blame you for quitting given the `hassle` as you mention is involved when parameters are at such critical values as those.

And True ... Algas require little of anything to proliferate as your previous Blanketweed issues demonstrate.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:13 pm

Admin wrote:I would Love to run R/O Dave... but don`t blame you for quitting given the `hassle` as you mention is involved when parameters are at such critical values as those.

And True ... Algas require little of anything to proliferate as your previous Blanketweed issues demonstrate.
Depending upon your source water it might be worth your while, however depening upon wether or not you are on a meter or as you know there might be additional costs of running a supply pump if your mains pressure is low. Fortunately none of these applied to me.Best Regards Dave
PS Are you still using CBA or Kusuri Gold to control Blanketweed, and did you ever get to find out if they do contain copper and/or zinc ?
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Zinc Oxide?

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:29 pm

The last time I treated the dreaded `BW`Dave I did dose CBA but it took twice as much to eliminate it as many have found upon repeated use of the same product Rolling Eyes

We discussed this in a previous thread Arrow http://mio-chichi.forumotion.co.uk/t12p15-h20-green-water-and-blanketweed

CBA does contain Zinc Oxide as cloverleaf`s John confirmed to myself and Manky during many phone calls.

Whether Eco Gold does too I`m unsure but Paula Reynaulds tested one of the BW products (not CBA) which contained Zinc Oxide also.

I havn`t seen the name of the Brand Paula tested posted anywhere but it might have been Eco Gold ?

Perhaps others can confirm.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by AL on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:59 pm

Gees Dave 80ppm from supply can i marry your water please. pirat

I havent started the RO mindgames here but with a TDS from supply of 220<300 after KH/GH subtraction your water from the tap is what i am looking for after RO not like sewerage tratement inflow I have now.

Can you trickle in a little faster my DIY DID? Very Happy
how much exchange rate per day are you trickling?
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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:16 pm

AL wrote:Gees Dave 80ppm from supply can i marry your water please. pirat

I havent started the RO mindgames here but with a TDS from supply of 220<300 after KH/GH subtraction your water from the tap is what i am looking for after RO not like sewerage tratement inflow I have now.

Can you trickle in a little faster my DIY DID? Very Happy
how much exchange rate per day are you trickling?

I WISH Sweetie Rolling Eyes

I`m trickling around 4 inches per day in depth Al in a bid not to crash the Temps but will begin pumping out one third at a time to try to desalinate. Twisted Evil

I might have to run a hose from the mixer tap in the kitchen to keep it at 20C.


Interestingly Params (apart from PH Twisted Evil ) are all zero because of the Green Water ... but I would PREFER a touch of Nitrate and Phosphate than a 9 PH Shocked



They should have been returned to the main Vat by now but the Brine they are currently swimming in has delayed this.


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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:38 pm

One Third of the Brine has now been pumped out Rolling Eyes

Will let you all know how this affects the Salinity/TDS once topped up again.




The Koi are at less than point two percent now that the vat has cycled (but still 4 phigures) Twisted Evil so some way to go before the QT/Hospital tank has equalized.


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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:31 pm

Anyone spot the mistake Embarassed in my above post re Koi Vat TDS Question

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:42 am

The PinPoint is a TDS Salinity Meter despite it`s misleading`Water Hardness` description and measures in PPM.

The Hanna Meter is an EC not TDS Meter and measures in uS/cm mS/cm.

The 1,733 Koi Vat value would therefore NOT Embarassed in fact equal 4 Phigures once converted to PPM which is approx half the uS/cm value Rolling Eyes

My Bad sorry Embarassed

QT Values once topped back up were 3,100 PPM >



Note the Temp drop from the previous day prior to my topping up Shocked the Weather pattern is crazy this year.

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PPM/uS/cm corrected.

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:14 am

Having made a complete`Pigs Ear` of the above measurements in light of a brief Randy Holmes Farley refresher course re the Pinpoint `Water Hardness` Meter Embarassed

The Values accurately converted and more importantly `CORRECTED` read thus.

Both Meters measure EC (conductivity) in uS/cm mS/cm and not PPM as posted previously. Embarassed

Conversion factors quoting RHF are in fact Arrow


True TDS meters (that only give output in TDS units, such as the Oakton TDS Tester shown in Figure 4) typically convert the conductivity reading into the ppm concentration of some salt that would give the same measured conductivity. For example, it might
be set to give as its output the concentration of sodium chloride (NaCl) that would give that same conductivity. So if the device detected 447 mS/cm, it might display that as 215.5 ppm, as that is the concentration of sodium chloride that gives that same conductivity.

Unfortunately, there is no single exact conversion between conductivity and ppm NaCl as the conductivity of a sodium chloride solution is not linear with concentration (that is, 20 ppm NaCl is slightly less conductive than twice that of 10 ppm NaCl, the reasons for which article, but in a sense, the more ions there are in solution, the more they interfere with each other in terms of sensing the voltage, and in terms of moving in response to it). Nevertheless, for values in the range sensed by most TDS meters, a rough conversion is that 1 ppm NaCl mS/cm.

Now the fun really begins. The problem with such devices, at least when not carefully calibrated, is that it is not clear whether it is referring to ppm of sodium chloride equivalents, or to something else. Potassium chloride (KCl) is actually used as the standard more often than sodium chloride. Additionally, researchers often use something called 442 which is a mixture of sodium sulfate (40%), sodium bicarbonate (40%) and sodium chloride (20%). The 442 mixture is designed to mimic the ions often present in natural fresh water systems.

These systems all have slightly different relationships between concentration (in ppm) and conductivity (in mS/cm).

Table 2 shows this relationship for some commercial conductivity standards made by Oakton. For many aquarium purposes, it may make little difference whether the true value corresponds to 10 ppm NaCl or 10 ppm 442, but there is a 30-70% difference in the measured conductivity and hence in the total ions present. Consequently, two aquarists using different meters (which may use different standards) may get substantially different results on the water. Of course, if you calibrate the meter yourself (if that is possible, not all meters can be calibrated), instead of accepting a factory calibration, then you eliminate this concern since you know exactly what you calibrated with.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rhf/feature/

Many thank`s to Randy for his very informative TDS Article Very Happy

Pinpoint Meter conversions taken from the `USERS GUIDE` read thus.

Note: The 2K scale will display up to 2,000 microSiemens (µS) in a resolution of single microSiemen units (µS). This is most useful for freshwater applications. The 20K scale will display up to 20,000 microSiemen (µS). When the meter is used in the 20K mode, only the first four digits will be displayed, i.e. 15.41 is actually 15,410 microSiemens (µS). Samples in excess of 20,000 microSiemens will appear on the display as "1" signifying that the sample is of out of range of this instrument. The PINPOINT®️ Salinity Monitor can be used to measure this higher range up to 200,000 µS.

CONVERSION TO OTHER SCALES OF HARDNESS
33 microSiemens = 17.9ppm
33microSiemens = 1dH (German ° hardness)
1dH = 17.9ppm

***Therefore the mathematical formula for a conversion to ppm is: Take the reading on the display and divide it by 33, then take the result and multiply it by 17.9

http://www.americanmarineusa.com/conductivitymonitor.html

Based upon all of the above the actual Koi Vat and QT Values equate too Embarassed

QT = 6,550 micro Siemens uS / by 33 = 198.48 X 17.9 = 3552.87 PPM Rolling Eyes

Salinity therefore measures just under point 4 percent and not 6 as stipulated previously. Rolling Eyes

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by AL on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:26 pm

There is nothing like a little number crunching to confuse us all but at least it sorted now.

I just got another refresher on the coversions which is always helpful Very Happy
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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:42 pm

AL wrote:There is nothing like a little number crunching to confuse us all but at least it sorted now.

I just got another refresher on the conversions wich is always helpful Very Happy

The Good News is that now that I have diluted the `Brine` to 3,000 uS/cm Al.. I only have another 1,300 uS/cm to remove before both salinity values match Very Happy



How is your TDS doing these days?

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by alank on Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:01 am

On the subject of KH, GH and TH, its all above my head as you speak to two different people and get conflicting advice. Hopefully tou can help me out.

With drops, I consistently have KH 1, GH 6. I have no idea if this is good or not. PH is always between 7.2 and 7.6. When it drops to 7.2, I add bicarb.

Recently, I purchased Sensafe strips for the Exact Micro 7+ to test TH in the low range and get readings of TH 70. Again, no idea what this means or what sort of readings are ideal.

Any advice would be appreciated.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:20 am

alank wrote:On the subject of KH, GH and TH, its all above my head as you speak to two different people and get conflicting advice. Hopefully tou can help me out.

With drops, I consistently have KH 1, GH 6. I have no idea if this is good or not. PH is always between 7.2 and 7.6. When it drops to 7.2, I add bicarb.

Recently, I purchased Sensafe strips for the Exact Micro 7+ to test TH in the low range and get readings of TH 70. Again, no idea what this means or what sort of readings are ideal.

Any advice would be appreciated.


This is a bewildering subject Alan and one I really wanted to get my teeth into by way of an Article but study opportunities have been few and far between with my Astrology degree consuming much of my time lately Rolling Eyes

I touched upon it here > http://mio-chichi.forumotion.co.uk/t36-water-hardness

The Phthalein Purple TH test is a low range test for Calcium/Magnesium expressed as Calcium /CAC03....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49664439/Total-hardness-cell-test

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:22 pm

allank

We need to know what the parameters of your source water is. My source water is K.H. 1 and G.H 3. to 4 and TDS 70ppm. Without running RO I can maintain a constant TDS in my pond of 80ppm. and a p.H. of 7.2 to 7.4 depending upon time of the day.

Since not using RO I can now maintain a p.H of the above without the use of bicarb by the following means.Constant trickle in 24/7 . low stocking densities, regular maintenacne and not overfeeding. I find this works for me.However if I change any of the above and allow the pond not to be naturally replenished with good fresh water and the liitle amount of carbonates used up. I would therefore need to top this up in the form of Bicararb. to maintain a p.H of 7.2.The only thing I am trying to put in the pond at the moment is food & water. Sorry if this is in laymen terms, but this is how I see it.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:42 pm

Do test supply water too Alan ... as Dave suggested.

The GH/KH and TH are being measured as CACO3 aka Calcium Carbonate... and not Calcium CA++ MG OR Carbonate ... meaning you have the equivalent Alkalinity/Hardness it would take to harden distilled water to a GH 6/KH 1with CACO3.

Your Total Hardness test measures CA++ MG++ along with trace metals and not Alkalinity.

What are your TDS values of both Pond and Supply Alan ?

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by alank on Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:01 pm

DaveB wrote:allank

We need to know what the parameters of your source water is. My source water is K.H. 1 and G.H 3. to 4 and TDS 70ppm. Without running RO I can maintain a constant TDS in my pond of 80ppm. and a p.H. of 7.2 to 7.4 depending upon time of the day.

Since not using RO I can now maintain a p.H of the above without the use of bicarb by the following means.Constant trickle in 24/7 . low stocking densities, regular maintenacne and not overfeeding. I find this works for me.However if I change any of the above and allow the pond not to be naturally replenished with good fresh water and the liitle amount of carbonates used up. I would therefore need to top this up in the form of Bicararb. to maintain a p.H of 7.2.The only thing I am trying to put in the pond at the moment is food & water. Sorry if this is in laymen terms, but this is how I see it.

Dave, with those readings, you must live just around the corner from me. I will do the tap water tests later.

I used to get the odd PH crash but the PH is a lot more stable now. Possibly due to the shower on BHM?

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:58 pm

[quote="alank"]
DaveB wrote:allank

We need to know what the parameters of your source water is. My source water is K.H. 1 and G.H 3. to 4 and TDS 70ppm. Without running RO I can maintain a constant TDS in my pond of 80ppm. and a p.H. of 7.2 to 7.4 depending upon time of the day.

Since not using RO I can now maintain a p.H of the above without the use of bicarb by the following means.Constant trickle in 24/7 . low stocking densities, regular maintenacne and not overfeeding. I find this works for me.However if I change any of the above and allow the pond not to be naturally replenished with good fresh water and the liitle amount of carbonates used up. I would therefore need to top this up in the form of Bicararb. to maintain a p.H of 7.2.The only thing I am trying to put in the pond at the moment is food & water. Sorry if this is in laymen terms, but this is how I see it.

Dave, with those readings, you must live just around the corner from me. I will do the tap water tests later.

I used to get the odd PH crash but the PH is a lot more stable now. Possibly due to the shower on BHM?[/quote]Quite probably yes. any addition of o2 will increase /maintain p.H. Might be worth while keeping an extra eye on p.H. during the winter which although maybe more stable could drop due to reduced sunlight/photosythisis. I always find my pond always runs with a slightly lower p.H. during the winter.

The excessive G.H. was one of the main reasons why Iran RO. In trying to reduce the G.H. to lower than the K.H. as I understand this helps to stabalize p.H. It did work to a point. However it was difficult to mainatin the p.H. above 7 with any safety margin whilst on holliday. It also help to reduce phosphate levels which is quite high in our area NE england. Eventually I even ended up putting back in calcium & magnesiun and sodium bicarb. All this just kept adding to the costs.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:18 pm

My PH is much more `stable`also during Wintertime following covering Dave ....

The loss of `Solar` energy gain when utilizing a Solar Pool cover which is not transparent can equate to up to 40% Shocked which is great for ridding the system of the dreaded Alga`s due to light penetration restrictions ...

Evaporation accounts for 70% of heat loss from surface water which covering eliminates ...

Evaporating water requires a tremendous amount of energy.

It takes only 1 Btu to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree ... but each pound of 80ºF water that evaporates takes a whopping 1,048 Btu of heat out of the water Shocked

I was tempted to place the cover above the water surface this time but this will damage the cover as these are designed literally to transfer Solar energy `heat` directly to the water and have been demonstrated to raise Pool water heat by 8C ?

Cold water retains gases much more efficiently than warm water so is less likely to `off gas` accumulated CO2/Ammonia etc which can lower PH or in my case keep it stable ....

Lack of Photosynthesis consuming CO2 over winter can compound this ....


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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:58 am

I have just check the TDS and there is a slight rise, it normally runs at 80ppm. now 84ppm. Checked source water which has increased from 70ppm to 80ppm. I checked this after changing 3x purifiers . So checked the water through a different set of filters and the same 80ppm. So there is an increase of 10ppm. I ahve checked there is no chlorine present, but As yet I have not checked for K.H. G.H. and phoshate to see if there is any increase there. Might just be an increase in other impurites??

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:38 am

DaveB wrote:I have just check the TDS and there is a slight rise, it normally runs at 80ppm. now 84ppm. Checked source water which has increased from 70ppm to 80ppm. I checked this after changing 3x purifiers . So checked the water through a different set of filters and the same 80ppm. So there is an increase of 10ppm. I ahve checked there is no chlorine present, but As yet I have not checked for K.H. G.H. and phoshate to see if there is any increase there. Might just be an increase in other impurites??

Has the water increased in Temp? this might explain it ?

Test Kits such as GH/KH as mentioned previously Dave measure in `equivalents`giving false readings in relation to actual water TDS values ...

The TDS Value approximately consists of divalent salt constituents such as Ca++ MG++ Na combined with their sister trace mineral components Nitrate etc ....

30 mg of actual Ca++ would give a GH test kit reading of 75ppm CAC03 but NOT equate to 75ppm TDS ...

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by DaveB on Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:31 am

No I don,t think so. Anyway I think my meter is temperature compensated.

I know what you are saying regarding the combined G.H & k.H would not give the same TDS. in ppm However a rise in of any of them would indicate an increase in TDS but not the equivilent rise in TDS surely.

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Re: 4 Figure TDS!

Post by Admin on Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:46 am

DaveB wrote:No I don,t think so. Anyway I think my meter is temperature compensated.

I know what you are saying regarding the combined G.H & k.H would not give the same TDS. in ppm However a rise in of any of them would indicate an increase in TDS but not the equivilent rise in TDS surely.

Yes Dave Smile

It is all about `Equivalents`ie should the Ca++Mg++ constituents `increase by say 30 ppm the TDS value should reflect this whilst the GH test kit value increases by 75ppm measured as CACO3 ...

Even temp compensated meters can lag when not measuring values at optimal calibration temps.


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