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Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

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Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:37 pm

Hi Guys

One of my new additions( The best one) sanke looked like the first signs of fin rot. On closer inspection looked like old and not new with the classic signs of white areas growing towards the perducle > However I decided to act now and treat the damage a the same time. here is a couple of photographs of in itial findings.



Sorry the photo are not too clear, better luck next time. The second photo clearly shows a hole which after cleaning and you could quite easly get your finger in up to the first knucle to give you an idea of the size. I was quite concerd as there is something in there which could not be removed easily. Dead scale??

I have stared a course of Baytril to try and help things along and treated the pond with 0.3% salt and 3 treatments of combat from lincolnshire fish health ( pauler Renolds)Hopefully to healp the koi with ingress of water ( osmoregulatory system) and lower the bacterial levels and protozoa in the water.

Looks like she is in for a bumpy ride

Best Regards Dave

Best Regards Dave


Last edited by DaveB on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:50 pm

Day 3 update

On lifting the above sanke for second baytril injections it is clear that things have taken a turn for the worse.



My initial thoughts are 1. The immune system is failing, 2 the anti biotic has not taken hold yet. A dead scale needs to be removed.

I have marked 2 areas, the first one. Although the inflamation has spread the area does show signs of healing. The other is a grisle type substance which can only be the reminants of an old scale.? I appreciate that in this area ( underbelly) the scales are smaller and very tough. However they definately dont want to come out easily.

This time I cauterized the area using 3% hydrogen peroxide before topically treating and 2nd baytril injectiion.

The only good news is the fin rot has not reappeard and the section I trimmed off lookes clean and is healing well.In general the koi sames to have perked up a bit and is swiming about a bit more since the second injection

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:50 pm

Day 4/5 prior to next treatment. After more thoughts on the above I have now realised what is in the wound. It is cartlage this is why when you ever give an Intrapertioneally injection into the body cavity it is necessary to give it 10mm to one side ( underneath)to avoid this very hard cartlage. I am now fairly certain that this cartlage needs to be left alone for now. There are a couple of areas which are protruding which may need cliping back, which otherwise might prevent healing when the koi is moving.

Good news the koi is happly swimming around this morning which is amazing really. I am trying to be positive with this and I think this is always a good sign. Best regards Dave

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Nice to know she is responding swiftly Sweetie ... Very Happy

The H202 de-briding of the wound was the most significant step IMO ... once cleansed thoroughly the Immune system kicks in rapidly which your lovely Sanke Koi Babe is demonstrating ...

I would have chosen Koi Clear as a topical .. but it is simply a personal preference .. many work very well ....

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:20 pm

Day 5 3rd injection

Here are the pics

Most of the red you can see is the remains of mercuchrome from previous tratmentand you can clearly see th new skin around the edges. I am now toying with the idea of filling the hole with orabase paste to see if I can fill in the hole

after treatment. I think I will leave off the mercuchrome and see if there is further improvement. Unfortunately I have no koi clear at hand but might use more propolis once I start getting a skin covering.

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:25 pm

Well Done Dave .... Very Happy

The wound looks much better already ...

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:30 am

Mio I have just mixed some Bees Propolis with Orabase powder and made a nice sticky paste. Perhaps I might try and completely pack the hole with this prior to sealing. I have now used the mercuchrome 3 times and wonder if this is preventing the healing. Just thought I might change tactics as I only have a few more days of IBs to go. However I am quite prepaired to give a few extra injections if needed.

Here is a photo taken in the large inspection bowl this morning. Hope you agree she is definately worth the effort.

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:42 am

Once the wound is thoroughly De-Brided with H202 (ONCE ONLY) initially Dave and spotless ... several types of various Topicals including Propolis work very well ...

I would be treating every 3 days or so were she mine Sweetie ... but you must do what you personally are `HAPPY` with ...


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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:45 am

DaveB wrote:Mio I have just mixed some Bees Propolis with Orabase powder and made a nice sticky paste. Perhaps I might try and completely pack the hole with this prior to sealing. I have now used the mercuchrome 3 times and wonder if this is preventing the healing. Just thought I might change tactics as I only have a few more days of IBs to go. However I am quite prepaired to give a few extra injections if needed.

Here is a photo taken in the large inspection bowl this morning. Hope you agree she is definately worth the effort

She is Lovely Sweetie .... Very Happy

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:09 pm

Hi Mio Thanks again for the imput always appreiated at time like this. At first I was Treating every otherday at the same time as giving the injection, however since I have now made some progress, I too have been toying with the idea of missing two clear days before treatment and injection.

When I treated my kohaku with the exactly same wound a few years back it took 7 injections and a month to totally cover the wound with new skin..

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:41 pm

The Babes need a little time to recover from each Anaesthesia I feel Dave which is why I treated Hannibal and Mio`s ulcers every 3rd day ....

How is She looking today Sweetie Very Happy

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:21 pm

Remarkably well She is swimming with the rest but not interested in food as yet.Good point regarding the anaesthesia . However The last twice prior to injecting she seems to perk up the day after, but by the second day is sulking again. Perhaps now that she has a decent amount of antibiotic in her this might change for the better. I am just taking things on a daily basis and acting accordingly without any fixed protocol. But listening to every thing you are saying.Suck it and see is the way forward. I hope.

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:25 pm

Try Focusing upon her `Wellbeing` Sweetie Very Happy instead of the Malady ie how Lovely she is etc Very Happy

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:35 pm

Up feeding as we speek

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:51 pm

DaveB wrote:Up feeding as we speek

Glad to hear that Sweetie Very Happy

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:31 pm

Day 7



I think healing is nearly complete and is going to heal with what can only be the vetral fin muscle exposed. But not sure here is a closeup

Let me know what you think. I am fairly certain the redness is the remains of mercurochrome

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:36 pm

Looks nice and clean Dave ...

I would continue applying Topical Treatments until Healing is complete were she mine Sweetie Very Happy

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:16 pm

Day seven and final injection or maybe not





Looking at the above photo you can just make out what are a couple of dead scales at the front of the wound. This I think is perhaps not going as well as I first thought.

Next photo is after removing 4 scales which were rough and came out fairly easily, Hopefully full healing can now take place.


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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:19 pm

I would have removed the dead scales too Sweetie ... and continue with the Topical Treatments ....

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:05 pm

Day 9 Observation only.The Sanke is swimming around OK but not so active. The new showa is the same. This seems to be the usual occurance after second day after using combat. Immediate improvement when using combat.but after two days the koi are larthargic again. The 3 coarse treatment of combat is now complete but waiting until weekend to treat with CT. In the meantime I will inspect the sanke tomorrow for further tropical treatment and inject if needed.

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:50 pm

DaveB wrote:Day 9 Observation only.The Sanke is swimming around OK but not so active. The new showa is the same. This seems to be the usual occurance after second day after using combat. Immediate improvement when using combat.but after two days the koi are larthargic again. The 3 coarse treatment of combat is now complete but waiting until weekend to treat with CT. In the meantime I will inspect the sanke tomorrow for further tropical treatment and inject if needed.

Best Regards Dave

Glad they are responding to treatment Sweetie ...

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:00 pm

Revearsing CT treatment with sodium thiosulphate. What are the dosage rates and wonder can we use H2O2 instead. Can we use an ORp meter like when we treat with PP.All just in case. I have ordered 1 kg ST just in case

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:40 pm

Dave,

I have never used CT ... but add 1 teaspoon of sodium thio to every 1,000 gallons of tap water to neutralise 1ppm chlorine ....

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?17850-Sodium-Thiosulfate&s=1f8ebf511bc4b932bb5bc76ebd30a104?s=1f8ebf511bc4b932bb5bc76ebd30a104

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by DaveB on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:33 pm

Hi Mio That has given me a rough idea of what I may need. I used the calculator in thread and for my pond works 0ut at over 800 grams that is assuming I have 10ppm chlorine in the water but not sure how much chlorine is in chloramine T. and how much will be spent on organics. The link has also got me a basis to work on. Thanks again

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Re: Treating Fin Rot & and an Ulcer

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:49 pm

DaveB wrote:Hi Mio That has given me a rough idea of what I may need. I used the calculator in thread and for my pond works 0ut at over 800 grams that is assuming I have 10ppm chlorine in the water but not sure how much chlorine is in chloramine T. and how much will be spent on organics. The link has also got me a basis to work on. Thanks again

25% available Chlorine Dave Very Happy

Do you have a Total Chlorine test kit Sweetie ? If so ... test it before neutralising ...

http://www.iofina.com/static/chemical_files/7-hs-chloramine-t-data.pdf


Last edited by Admin on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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