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Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

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Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:15 pm

The cost of running a `Heat Pump` in comparison with an `Element` Heater such as My Elecro 3KWT would be Dramatically reduced Shocked

Some Figures quoted here >

http://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/acatalog/UKPS-What-is-a-Kilo-watt.pdf


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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:53 pm

I have just followed a couple of threads on another forum. I have pasted a nice explanaition of how a heat pump works for those who would like to know.




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fridgeman says: "heat pumps " @ 10:21pm Thursday 25th Aug
for those that want to know how heat pumps work!!!

the unit itself is the outdoor unit of an air conditioning unit with a heat exchanger in it. the compresser inside compresses refrigerant gas (r410a) to the heat exchanger were your pond water is running trough the gas temp @ the outlet end is around 55 dec and @ the inlet end its around 20 dec. onch the gas as been condensed into a liguid via the heatchange from the pond water it then has to change back into a gas to be compressed again thats done with the liguid being pumped through a small hole to the coil outside and ambiant air being blown trough the coil this causing the pressure to drop and the liguid starting to boil off , and away it goes again

with the refrigerant boiling off @ around 5 dec in the outside coil it can cause the coil to frost up once the ambiant has dropped low enough ! to clear this the system has a temp prob on the pipe and as soon as it reads a set point of say -15 dec it will defrost the coil by reversing the cycle and away it goes again.

savings!! for every 1.7kw of power consumed i will get 5.1 kw of heat free from an 8.5kw system (these are rough figures)

downfall !! the lower the ambiant air the less warm air there is to boil of the gas there for the system requires more defrost cycles. these system work in ambient temps as low as -15 but the capacity will start to decline at around 0 dec

i belive every heating system has its pros and cons and the reason i went for the heat pump was to save £££££ on energy consupton and the efficency of then

hope this helps in understanding heatpumps ??


Also here is a link to the heat pump which fridgeman used. http://www.cheshire.luxurypools.co.uk/crystalclear_heat_pumps.html
Sofar the feed back has been promising. I would be interested to see what alank thinks if you are around

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:08 pm

Dave have you considered buying a `Ground Source` Heat Pump ?

Comparisons here >

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/index2.php?DATEIN=tpc_whqvqgitt_1149287153

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:45 am

I understand that the coils require burying in the garden. I would possibly could if I didn,t have a pond taking all the room up

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:09 am

DaveB wrote:I understand that the coils require burying in the garden. I would possibly could if I didn,t have a pond taking all the room up

Know the Feeling Dave Rolling Eyes

Ponds/Qt`s /Equipment related to such etc occupy most of my Garden Space too !

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:06 am

My thoughts have been looking at installing a heat pump of an input power of no more than 2 kw and run it for during periods when the solar panals are producing in excesd of 3kw thereby in theory for free. Recently I have been giving my koi a winter period of 7 degs which can be maintained by a gas boiler and is not too expensive. I am however finding that a lot of the cost for heating is now made during spring & autum and even in the summer as I would like temperatures to be higher than the miserable 20degs last summer. can anyone see any problems af running heat pumps in this way.


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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:57 am

DaveB wrote:My thoughts have been looking at installing a heat pump of an input power of no more than 2 kw and run it for during periods when the solar panals are producing in excesd of 3kw thereby in theory for free. Recently I have been giving my koi a winter period of 7 degs which can be maintained by a gas boiler and is not too expensive. I am however finding that a lot of the cost for heating is now made during spring & autum and even in the summer as I would like temperatures to be higher than the miserable 20degs last summer. can anyone see any problems af running heat pumps in this way.


Dave `Air Source` Heat Pumps operate more efficiently at higher air temps states this very informative link and cost less to run than all other traditional appliances to heat Pools/Ponds etc Very Happy check this out (if you have not already Sweetie)

http://www.extendmypoolseason.com/questions-heat-pumps.html#typesof

Size Matters ! where `Heat Pumps` are concerned so sizing of a heat pump Pool/Pond heater must be based upon the pool/pond surface area ... geographic location .. environmental conditions ie shading/wind/blanketing at night to offset heat losses etc etc..

If you do not cover during the Summer Nights you will lose masses of `Heat` via evaporation Dave Rolling Eyes

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:01 am

Admin wrote:
DaveB wrote:My thoughts have been looking at installing a heat pump of an input power of no more than 2 kw and run it for during periods when the solar panals are producing in excesd of 3kw thereby in theory for free. Recently I have been giving my koi a winter period of 7 degs which can be maintained by a gas boiler and is not too expensive. I am however finding that a lot of the cost for heating is now made during spring & autum and even in the summer as I would like temperatures to be higher than the miserable 20degs last summer. can anyone see any problems af running heat pumps in this way.


Dave `Air Source` Heat Pumps operate more efficiently at higher air temps states this very informative link and cost less to run than all other traditional appliances to heat Pools/Ponds etc Very Happy check this out (if you have not already Sweetie)

http://www.extendmypoolseason.com/questions-heat-pumps.html#typesof

Size Matters ! where `Heat Pumps` are concerned so sizing of a heat pump Pool/Pond heater must be based upon the pool/pond surface area ... geographic location .. environmental conditions ie shading/wind/blanketing at night to offset heat losses etc etc..

If you do not cover during the Summer Nights you will lose masses of `Heat` via evaporation Dave Rolling Eyes
This would be the case what ever type of heaqting you use. I find it just as expensive if not more to heat during the summer than the winter. In the case of swimming pools being a much higher temp than a koi pond the heatl loss during the night would be even greater.
My only concern is with this type of system is comparing them to gas heating rather than electric. Remember at the moment I am heating the pond for aproximately £365 per year and that is including winter. The costs of these units are not cheap and if the require repair/replacing after say five years, it all adds up. I might be exagerating and they may last a lot longer depending upon usage.
I recently read on a thread somewhere I have been trying to find it which quoted It actually cost more to run the heat pump than using a gas boiler during the winter, but this was in very servere conditions. I think the only way it would be feasable for me, would be if there was some sort of heat insentive tarrif as you mention before. I am still not totally convinced either way

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 am

[quote="DaveB"]
Admin wrote:
DaveB wrote:r. can anyone see any problems af running heat pumps in this way.

http://www.extendmypoolseason.com/questions-heat-pumps.html#typesof

This would be the case what ever type of heaqting you use. I find it just as expensive if not more to heat during the summer than the winter. In the case of swimming pools being a much higher temp than a koi pond the heatl loss during the night would be even greater.

My only concern is with this type of system is comparing them to gas heating rather than electric. Remember at the moment I am heating the pond for aproximately £365 per year and that is including winter. The costs of these units are not cheap and if the require repair/replacing after say five years, it all adds up. I might be exagerating and they may last a lot longer depending upon usage.
I recently read on a thread somewhere I have been trying to find it which quoted It actually cost more to run the heat pump than using a gas boiler. I think the only way it would be feasable for me, would if there was some sort of heat insentive tarrif as you mention before

You would have to switch to `Whole House` to receive the Renewable Energy Tariff Dave IF it applies to private homes ?

Do Investigate this thoroughly prior to any Financial outlay ?

When used externally to a building, Colt's outdoor unit ASHP provides a break-even point of about -3°C with an overall break-even point of 2°C, a temperature that is infrequently met in the UK.

With the vast majority of the UK heating season above this temperature, Colt's ASHP provides a more efficient option compared with a condensing gas boiler, combining the functionality of cooling for warmer months.

http://www.bsee.co.uk/news/archivestory.php/aid/5038/Air_source_heat_pumps_-_how_do_they_compare_to_condensing_boilers_.html

Running costs depend upon the C.o.P which in the UK is conducive to `Air Source` Heat Pump efficiency ....

Condensing Gas Boilers such as mine cost more to run than do ASHP`s Dave ...

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Compare-Heat-Pump-to-Condensing-Boiler.htm

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:46 am

[quote="Admin"]
DaveB wrote:
Admin wrote:
DaveB wrote:r. can anyone see any problems af running heat pumps in this way.

http://www.extendmypoolseason.com/questions-heat-pumps.html#typesof

This would be the case what ever type of heaqting you use. I find it just as expensive if not more to heat during the summer than the winter. In the case of swimming pools being a much higher temp than a koi pond the heatl loss during the night would be even greater.

My only concern is with this type of system is comparing them to gas heating rather than electric. Remember at the moment I am heating the pond for aproximately £365 per year and that is including winter. The costs of these units are not cheap and if the require repair/replacing after say five years, it all adds up. I might be exagerating and they may last a lot longer depending upon usage.
I recently read on a thread somewhere I have been trying to find it which quoted It actually cost more to run the heat pump than using a gas boiler. I think the only way it would be feasable for me, would if there was some sort of heat insentive tarrif as you mention before

You would have to switch to `Whole House` to receive the Renewable Energy Tariff Dave IF it applies to private homes ?

Do Investigate this thoroughly prior to any Financial outlay ?
When used externally to a building, Colt's outdoor unit ASHP provides a break-even point of about -3°C with an overall break-even point of 2°C, a temperature that is infrequently met in the UK.

With the vast majority of the UK heating season above this temperature, Colt's ASHP provides a more efficient option compared with a condensing gas boiler, combining the functionality of cooling for warmer months.

http://www.bsee.co.uk/news/archivestory.php/aid/5038/Air_source_heat_pumps_-_how_do_they_compare_to_condensing_boilers_.html

Running costs depend upon the C.o.P which in the UK is conducive to `Air Source` Heat Pump efficiency ....

Condensing Gas Boilers such as mine cost more to run than do ASHP`s Dave ...

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Compare-Heat-Pump-to-Condensing-Boiler.htm
This is exactly what I did with solar panels and found peoples views and expectations greatly different than what is quoted by installers and manufacturers. I am not saying that your links will be inaccurate, far from it however having worked on many marine fridges and heat pumps ( admittedly probablly out of date by now)and found them notoriously temperamentle, I think I will see what the concenses after a couple of UK winters is. However please keep us posted of any new research or as peoples view/experiences develope

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:12 am

I`m interested in this technology myself Dave (prior to inventing an ultrasonic water heating alternative Wink) and the consensus thus far is that `ASHP` run more cheaply than all other available alternatives to date.

My Summer Gas Bill was £200 and I neither heat the Pond with Gas OR Cook with it either ... despite the `Condensing` Boiler Shocked

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Air-source-heat-pumps

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:28 am

Mio I have just used the COP figures in your link of 4 to 1 for heat pump at a cost of 10p per kw hour therfore costing only 2.5 per kw produced. I thenused the COP figure for condensing boiler 2.24 at a cost of 3.4 p per kwh ( Scotish power costs at the moment) this works out at 1.52p per kw produced . By my calculation the Gas boiler is the cheaper option based on gas being 3 times cheaper than electricity and not 2 as quoted by link.

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:05 am

Dave the figures quoted vary ... MSE website suggests 2.5 x cheaper than electricity then one has to factor in the 90% efficiency condensing boilers operate at.

My Washing machine is cold fill only also so not using any Gas ... I`m being charged 3.810 per KWT and used 4,000 in 12 months Shocked

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=259390

Plus Natural Gas is swiftly running out so `Electricity`is the Future via Renewable Sources imo ....






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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:18 am

Admin wrote:Dave the figures quoted vary ... MSE website suggests 2.5 x cheaper than electricity then one has to factor in the 90% efficiency condensing boilers operate at.

My Washing machine is cold fill only also so not using any Gas ... I`m being charged 3.810 per KWT and used 4,000 in 12 months Shocked

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=259390

Plus Natural Gas is swiftly running out so `Electricity`is the Future via Renewable Sources imo ....Hopefully by which time the govement will have sorted out what the actulal heat saving tarrif.

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:27 pm

DaveB wrote:Mio I have just used the COP figures in your link of 4 to 1 for heat pump at a cost of 10p per kw hour therfore costing only 2.5 per kw produced. I thenused the COP figure for condensing boiler 2.24 at a cost of 3.4 p per kwh ( Scotish power costs at the moment) this works out at 1.52p per kw produced . By my calculation the Gas boiler is the cheaper option based on gas being 3 times cheaper than electricity and not 2 as quoted by link.
Having now furthered my knowledge after doing more research ( still on going) I would like to update this with you if I may. My calculations regarding Condensing Boilers versus Heat pumps were incorrect and I woulld like to apolergise if this has caused any confusion. I have been informed that the COP of condensing boilers is in the region of 0.8 ie 80% efficient due to the differnce in the price of gas and electricity the break even COP is around 2.3. Therfore anything above this then a saving would be made. Heat pumps vary in COP at different ambient temps and at very low temps they can and do drop bellow 2. In most case in UK weather conditions/temps Heat pumps run with a COP in the region of 3 to 4. However I understand that the temperature to which you heat the water also effects the COP. I am finding great difficulty in finding any preformance graphs of COP figures in respect to ambient air temps and water temps . This would enable us to choose the correct model to suit our needs. Please bare with me as my research continues. Any help or advice in this are would be appreciated

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:06 am

Dave Graphs here > http://www.rangecylinders.co.uk/pdfs/sales/aeromax.pdf

I don`t know if this is the ASHP Type your after though ?

http://www.bsria.co.uk/news/air-source-heat-pumps/

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:45 am

Great links Mio. The first one on page 7 confirms why I am thinking of just running the unit in the summer or when ambient temps are higher than 6 degs when it becomes cheaper to run a heat pump rather than a condensing boiler which is probably 8 or 9 month of the year. If I run a unit of 1 kw or less in the summer when temps are above 15 deg and COP is higher, I could be getting 4.2kw and above free heat energy when Solar panels are producing in excess of 2.5kw. It now starting to be interestin

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:22 am

Sounds like a `Win-Win` project Sweetie Very Happy

I would wait until Mercury is back in full throttle before making any Major Financial Purchases personally Wink

Gremlins will be out in force ....

Best time period for `research and investigation` though Very Happy

http://www.bsria.co.uk/news/air-source-heat-pumps/

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:36 am

Our main boiler in the house has started playing up again and having had it for 12 years it might be due a replacment. This will tale priority over any pond projects. So the heatpump will have to go on the back buner for a while

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:44 pm

here is a link to heatpumps whiich are used on ponds where the water temps are in the range for ponds rather than swimming pools.The COPS are much better at lower water temps

http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/koi-ponds2
http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/myfiles/Duratech-DuraPlus-Cop-Curve%28R410a%29.pdf

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:20 pm

DaveB wrote:here is a link to heatpumps whiich are used on ponds where the water temps are in the range for ponds rather than swimming pools.The COPS are much better at lower water temps

http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/koi-ponds2
http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/myfiles/Duratech-DuraPlus-Cop-Curve%28R410a%29.pdf

Excellent info Dave Very Happy

I would be tempted to shell out the £995 cost of the 7KW Unit were I able to run 7KW from the house without `burning` out the sockets Rolling Eyes

http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/Duratech/Duratech-Dura-7-7Kw-2011-Swimming-Pool-Heat-Pump-Heater

Keep the info coming please Sweetie ..

If my Gas Boiler gives up the Ghost .. I would be inclined to replace it with an ASHP if It qualified for a Renewable Energy Subsidy Cool

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:21 am

Admin wrote:
DaveB wrote:here is a link to heatpumps whiich are used on ponds where the water temps are in the range for ponds rather than swimming pools.The COPS are much better at lower water temps

http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/koi-ponds2
http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/myfiles/Duratech-DuraPlus-Cop-Curve%28R410a%29.pdf

Excellent info Dave Very Happy

I would be tempted to shell out the £995 cost of the 7KW Unit were I able to run 7KW from the house without `burning` out the sockets Rolling Eyes
http://www.heatpumps4pools.com/Duratech/Duratech-Dura-7-7Kw-2011-Swimming-Pool-Heat-Pump-Heater

Keep the info coming please Sweetie
If my Gas Boiler gives up the Ghost .. I would be inclined to replace it with an ASHP if It qualified for a Renewable Energy Subsidy Cool
..Mio the 7 kw unit only takes 1.3 kw so can easily be run of a 3 pin plug. I too have been looking at changing from my exsisting boiler but without
a Renewable Energy subsidy The costs are too prohibitive

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:26 am

I`m reading this atm Dave >

http://www.factsaboutheatpumps.com/?gclid=CNjV0ePpx6wCFUdB4QodjWuHpw

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by DaveB on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:59 am

Mio I have applied. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. I am a bit dubious when it says its to add on to your exsisiting system. Perhaps it just adds onto the radiators ie air to water heat pump or are they units on the walls in the room ie air to air or ducting. Let me see what they come up with

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Re: Heat Pump vs Element Heaters !

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:20 am

DaveB wrote:Mio I have applied. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. I am a bit dubious when it says its to add on to your exsisiting system. Perhaps it just adds onto the radiators ie air to water heat pump or are they units on the walls in the room ie air to air or ducting. Let me see what they come up with

I think the ASHP simply replaces the Boiler Dave and feed the Radiators themselves.

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