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Autotroph VS Heretotroph

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Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:13 am

When my Main Pond Pump failed 2 yrs ago affraid I was staggered by the subsequent `Nitrate` accumulation in just 24 hrs which had Spiked to 100 ppm Shocked

AIR was still being pumped into the System providing the `In Situ` Nitrifying Species sufficient O2 to both Oxidize Ammonia and Nitrite efficiently ....

Not so in the case of Nitrate though ? which must have been being converted `EXCLUSIVELY` via the media in the Giant TT ? OR being off-gassed via Nitrite ? by-passing conversion to Nitrate all together ?

Within 24 hrs of Flow restoration to the TT along with a 50% water change .... 100ppm Nitrate reduced back to zero Shocked

True nitrifying bacteria are exclusively aerobic autotrophs.

They can only utilize nitrogen from inorganic sources such as Ammonia and Nitrite.

Nitrosomonas =[ammonia-oxidizers] Nitrobacter =[nitrite-oxidizers] Nitrospira also more recently is now believed to be a common Nitrite Oxidizer.

Heterotrophic bacteria are generally considered to be organic sludge degraders.

They mostly comprise Bacillus and Pseudomonas genera...

Most of these are facultative anaerobes functioning anaerobically or aerobically.

The various different functions depend upon the level of dissolved oxygen present.

Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" prefer to obtain their nitrogen from organic sources such as decomposing organic debris.

Many who can convert ammonia do so only when an organic nitrogen source is not available.

This is highly unlikely in an aquarium or pond where fish are stocked.

The explosion of "nitrifying" bacteria products in the industry is due to research that some heterotrophs can use ammonia-nitrogen. However, this is under ideal laboratory conditions.

Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" generally cannot utilize nitrites.

A few species are capable of reducing nitrite to free nitrogen .. under strictly anaerobic conditions.

Some startling Facts from Fritz Industries >

Scientific studies indicate that, depending on species ... between one thousand to one million heterotrophic bacteria cells are required to perform the same ammonia conversion rate as one Nitrosomonas bacteria cell.

Fritz-Zyme #7 has a cell count of 30 million bacteria per ounce, 50% of which is Nitrosomonas and 50% Nitrobacter. To obtain the same ammonia conversion rate, a competitive product composed of heterotrophic "nitrifiers" would require the addition of 15 trillion bacteria. This would probably require several gallons of another product. No quantity of heterotrophic "nitrifiers" would reduce the generated nitrites.

Heterotrophic "nitrifiers" can also operate in the reverse direction; that is they can convert nitrate to nitrite or ammonia, especially during times of low dissolved oxygen levels. In a pond, this could potentially happen during the hours before sunrise when DO levels are at their lowest.

There are no dry forms of any bacterial product that can contain viable Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter cells. Unlike heterotrophs, they cannot form spores so they cannot survive any type of drying or freeze-drying process.

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by DaveB on Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:15 pm

Mio

A very interesting article. This would go in some way to explain why I had problem getting my filters to start working properly when first staring out I used dryform/liquid filter boosters which never really worked I understand that most of the bacteria in these were in the form of heretotrophs.However when changing system from Jap matting to K1. I would remove 1 section of matting (3 in total) cut it up and put 25% in a large Bowl with recently PPd K1, areated it and maintained the temp to 28Deg and added Ammonia on a daily basis. Within 2 weeks I was changing the water 5% daily in order to control the nitrate. shortly after I would then add the KI to the filter system. I did this with all 3 filters and did not get one ammonia /nitrite spike in the pond.After adding the ammonia( can,t remember exactly in what form) but it was enough to send the ammonia reading off the test kit, by late afterrnoon the ammonia reading was nil and the nitrite was up. I would then add some more ammonia and by morning ammonia & nitrite were both zero & nitrate was over 100ppm.

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:39 pm

DaveB wrote:Mio

A very interesting article. This would go in some way to explain why I had problem getting my filters to start working properly when first staring out I used dryform/liquid filter boosters which never really worked I understand that most of the bacteria in these were in the form of heretotrophs.However when changing system from Jap matting to K1. I would remove 1 section of matting (3 in total) cut it up and put 25% in a large Bowl with recently PPd K1, areated it and maintained the temp to 28Deg and added Ammonia on a daily basis. Within 2 weeks I was changing the water 5% daily in order to control the nitrate. shortly after I would then add the KI to the filter system. I did this with all 3 filters and did not get one ammonia /nitrite spike in the pond.After adding the ammonia( can,t remember exactly in what form) but it was enough to send the ammonia reading off the test kit, by late afterrnoon the ammonia reading was nil and the nitrite was up. I would then add some more ammonia and by morning ammonia & nitrite were both zero & nitrate was over 100ppm.

I suspect that most of the `Bio` Balls and Bacteria additives on the Market to date comprise `Heretotrophic` Species Dave .. and given their capacity for proliferation /D.O Consumption not to mention `Media` space invasion etc I would avoid adding them personally...and why I PP`D the Sand Filter K3 too death recently....

I took part in this thread with Roddy which discussed `aerobic` conversion of `Nitrite` directly to NO ... ie by-passing the `Nitrate` stage altogether.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?111288-Nitrite-spike/page2




Last edited by Admin on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by DaveB on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:36 pm

In my view Roddy always makes facinating reading wether he is riight or wrong. I too believed that TT towers worked with anerobic areas in the converion of Nitrate to NO. Then I thought it was Ammonia being directly gasses off.Now I understand that it is Nitrite to nitritic oxide which is directly gassed off. Would this mean that my TT should still work after already being converted in my BB3 filter.

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:11 pm

DaveB wrote:In my view Roddy always makes facinating reading wether he is riight or wrong. I too believed that TT towers worked with anerobic areas in the converion of Nitrate to NO. Then I thought it was Ammonia being directly gasses off.Now I understand that it is Nitrite to nitritic oxide which is directly gassed off. Would this mean that my TT should still work after already being converted in my BB3 filter.

Ammonia is present and being respired continuously Dave so your TT/Shower media will be converting it ....

I had a small Spike of `Nitrite`/Nitrate when I decommissioned the Sand Filter recently suggesting the TT is doing the bulk of the converting ...

If during `De-Nitrification` in the BB3 Nitrate reverts to Nitrite Anaerobically .. then the TT Bio-Media species could conversely via NO production off gas if sufficiently exposed to air.

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by DaveB on Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:29 pm

I am surprised to hear that the de-nitrification process is going on in my BB3 Anaerobically. Is this due to low levels of O2.? This could explain why I always had low level nitrite when running system with Jap matting and before I had my TT on the end of the BB3

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by Admin on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:55 pm

DaveB wrote:I am surprised to hear that the de-nitrification process is going on in my BB3 Anaerobically. Is this due to low levels of O2.? This could explain why I always had low level nitrite when running system with Jap matting and before I had my TT on the end of the BB3

De-Nitrification via Pseudomonas and Bacillus species etc will occur anywhere `anoxic`zones exist or at low DO values Dave ... predominantly lower than 4-2 ppm...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0144860998000454

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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by Admin on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:42 am

Denitrifying Autotrophic `Sulphur`Bacteria ?


Several heterotrophic bacteria species can reduce nitrate by utilizing organic substrates such as methanol, ethanol, and acetate for the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas under anoxic (low D.O ) conditions.

Denitrification can also be carried out by autotrophic sulfur bacteria which use a variety of reduced sulfur compounds (S2-, So, S2O32-, S4O62-, SO3
2-) instead of organic compounds while reducing nitrate.

Researchers using pure cultures of Thiobacillus denitrificans, Thiomicrospira denitrificans, Thiobacillus versutus,Thiosphaera pantotropha, and Paracoccus denitrificans (Kerry L. Sublette et al., 1987;
Brian A. Till et al., 1998; Anje Timmer-Ten Hoor, 1981; J. G. Kuenen, 1979; Jan M. Visseret al., 1997; Ying-Chien Chung et al., 1997).

During experiments carried out over a 5 month period studying the effects of PH /various Chemicals etc ..... one of the findings reported was that`Nitrate` Oxidation ceased entirely at PH 6 and 9 respectively Shocked with a preference for PH 7-7.5.

The Experiment Arrow

http://enpl.kjist.ac.kr/mywww/publication/Kinetics%20and%20physiological%20characteristics%20of%20autotrophic%20dentrification%20by%20denitrifying%20sulfur%20bacteria.pdf

Interestingly Nitrobacter Agilis too (in a different experiment) performance improved in an organically enhanced medium...


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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

Post by HAN on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:22 am

fascinating read chi Cool
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Re: Autotroph VS Heretotroph

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